News
Plan for gifted in limbo
Supplementary instruction for intellectually gifted elementary students in the Flagstaff Unified School District could soon see an overhaul, with integrated daily lessons in the regular classroom possibly replacing the longstanding pullout classes.
District officials say the goal of the restructuring is to provide a stronger academic experience for the hundreds of students who left their classrooms for 45 minutes to an hour and a half once a week for more accelerated or challenging course work. Possibilities are still forming, but could include regular classroom teachers giving differentiated daily instruction tailored to individual students' strengths. The likelihood of change was disappointing enough to make one veteran teacher retire. And not all parents are sure if they support changing the services for their Talented and Gifted (TAG) children, but they do agree that they want the most stimulation for their kids.
Monica Swihart said her daughter Julia enjoyed rigorous research and creative arts projects, social counseling and mentoring while in the TAG pullout at DeMiguel Elementary.
Swihart said what she has been told seems sudden, vague and non-inclusive of parent input.
"Proposed changes were not evaluated in a careful manner with all the interested parties," she said. "This really had the appearance of being driven by budget woes, rather than a true interest in the gifted program. It seemed to be an easy target due to the part-time status of the gifted teachers."
Elementary gifted teachers were high on FUSD's proposed list of budget-related cuts, along with their colleagues in music, art, physical education, counseling and libraries. Last year, seven TAG teachers filled the equivalent of five full-time teachers in the 12 elementary schools, serving about 460 students, or 8 percent of the elementary population, in all. Most teachers were part-time in their positions at individual campuses, with two on a circuit of schools.
A recent reassessment of next year's budget preserved most specialty teachers and their programs as they were last year-- but gifted is still unsettled. The teachers were reassigned, chose to leave, or are still awaiting a contract.
"There are a cluster of issues around elementary TAG-- one was budget-related," said Superintendent Kevin Brown. "The five (full-time equivalents) that were in the elementary TAG program was one of the suggested budget savings-- not to eliminate gifted services for students but to do them differently."
But he said improvement is at the heart of the changes.
Tammy Nelson, FUSD's gifted coordinator, did not give detailed descriptions of possible changes, preferring to hold off until the school board officially joins the discussion at a July 14 meeting. But she did send out a letter to all parents of gifted elementary students generally saying that services would be restructured and promising future communications.
"I wrote in there that we are in the process of restructuring the program with the following goals at hand: To provide more consistent services across content areas, increase the amount of service currently provided and to train more teachers in differentiated instruction to meet all students' needs, including gifted," she said.
Nelson said there are four possibilities, still open to change. Two models that have been openly mentioned are "daily differentiated instruction" techniques in the regular classroom:
-- A clustering model that would concentrate advanced kids into groups.
-- A "response to intervention" model that would offer individualized supplemental tutoring.
Nelson did say that teachers would be trained this summer on differentiated instruction for all students, and more specifically for gifted pupils throughout the next school year.
LESS THAN 2 DAYS PER YEAR
Gifted services are state mandated, with FUSD getting $32,000 per year in state aid. They are not federally mandated or funded, as is the case with special education for developmentally disabled students.
Brown said one gifted teacher did a study of the current FUSD pullout system and found that students only received between a day and a half and two days of direct instruction per year after accounting for interruptions such as snow days, holidays and testing days - TAG teachers test potential students three times per year, and children qualify based on scores in verbal, non-verbal or quantitative talents.
Nelson sees TAG as an administrator and as a parent. Her daughter, a quantitatively gifted third-grader, is aware that her gifted instruction will not look the same next year.
"I think if they want to increase TAG services for my child, I'm all for it," she said.
As for Monica Swihart, uncertainties about the future direction and strength of gifted education led her to place her daughter in a charter middle school. FUSD's middle school gifted students, already in differentiated classes, also face potential program shifts.
The pullout model seemed best, she said, given limited regular in-class resources for gifted children and the demands their regular teachers already face with students with a wide range of abilities.
"Given the importance of this program perhaps a pilot study should be conducted prior to overhauling the program without the staff resources and training to implement the changes that are being proposed," she said.
Hillary Davis can be reached at hdavis@azdailysun.com or 556-2261.
Teacher retires instead
John Zannini taught gifted students for 25 of his 30 years in education. The last six years were spent at Knoles Elementary School, where he retired this spring as the only full-time, single-school gifted specialist in the district. He holds a master's degree, and a passion, focused on gifted education.
Zannini said he retired out of principle after receiving confirmation that TAG and his job description as they were known would be phased out.
Last school year, Knoles had 110 kindergartners through sixth-graders identified as gifted, representing nearly one-quarter of all gifted FUSD elementary students. The Foxglenn-area elementary is also the district's largest in overall enrollment.
Zannini said program evaluation should have started with the students, then gone on to parents and teachers. When he told his students why he wouldn't come back, they had questions.
"'Why didn't the grownups ask the children whether they liked TAG and whether they thought it important to them?'" Zannini quoted one child as asking. "Another student asked how the adults could decide whether TAG was worthwhile when not one of them had ever been in our classroom to see for themselves. These were questions from two first-grade TAG students."
He said he holds no hard feelings against FUSD, and trusts that his Knoles colleagues will continue to provide excellent services for all students.
He will miss his students though, and wants what statute states: for them "to achieve at levels commensurate with the child's intellect and ability."
What's next
WHAT: Work session meeting of the FUSD Governing Board
WHEN: July 14, 4 p.m.
WHERE: FUSD Administrative Center, 3285 E. Sparrow Ave.
NOTES: To discuss potential changes to talented and gifted (TAG) education. This is a discussion-only meeting for TAG providers and the Board.
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Leave your comments below:
Online editor wrote on Jul 9, 2009 3:57 PM:
" Tater -- Make a point about the issue. Tit for tat rarely adds to the conversation. "
Tater wrote on Jul 9, 2009 3:38 PM:
" If I had a gifted student attending school, I would contact H.G. Begay immediately. He makes a lot more sense than some of the stuff I've read here. Some of the posters would have us believe that since their kids are gifted, somehow they are gifted too. "
HGB wrote on Jul 9, 2009 2:21 PM:
" Giftedness has a nice ring to it - but bear in mind that the use of the percentile (in the bell curve) was invented by mathematicians in 17th century Europe at the request of gamblers for gamblers so the high rollers could beat the odds. The normal curve was never intended for the human brain let alone giftedness. Ever wonder why the normal curve has to be renormed every so often? Filtering test items & renorming drive the normal curve (percentile). Giftedness and percentiles mix just about as well as water and oil. The greatest challenge with giftedness is cognitive flexibility, adjustment to the village. Gifted people have to learn how to get along with others and vice versa. Cognitively, gifted students will find ways and means to get by in the village schools; they will find interesting things to do to educate themselves, more often than not beyond the classes (several meanings here). They eventually find their niche at Berkeley, Stanford, The Juilliard School, Brown, Carnegie Hall, MIT, Hamburg Hochschule, etc. Parents of TAG can either open up charter schools (which I've been doing since the mid-90's) or leave your gifted child/ren/student/s to chance events . . . ; someone once said, “where there is no vision for gifted & talented, cultures, people vanish”. Can the power of the human mind be measured (encapsulated)? Hardly. Much like the caveat on our food intake and health, so it is with our cognitive intake. Our human brain has evolved to evolve. Let’s take care of our brain before we take care of others. Just need a building by the way. H.G.Begay - Tuba City "
kr wrote on Jul 8, 2009 10:00 PM:
" Tater wrote on Jul 8, 2009 11:58 AM:
" kr---If you are inclined to turn your children over to "the village" for education, would it not make sense to look for a "village" that has the capacity to educate them? FUSD has an insatiable appetitie for public funds that this town and state is not willing or capable of providing. When you finally grasp that notion, what you need to do will become clearer. "
Of course, that makes perfect sense, I will just move away and leave this community to rot because it might take effort to make it a better place. (Please note this is said with heavy sarcasm which is hard to convey in written word.) "
" kr---If you are inclined to turn your children over to "the village" for education, would it not make sense to look for a "village" that has the capacity to educate them? FUSD has an insatiable appetitie for public funds that this town and state is not willing or capable of providing. When you finally grasp that notion, what you need to do will become clearer. "
Of course, that makes perfect sense, I will just move away and leave this community to rot because it might take effort to make it a better place. (Please note this is said with heavy sarcasm which is hard to convey in written word.) "
Rick wrote on Jul 8, 2009 12:14 PM:
" FUSD GOVERNING BOARD
District Statement of Vision, Expectations and Goals
We visualize our schools to be communities where students feel safe, welcomed and
accepted, while being challenged to demonstrate their HIGHEST potential. We see our
schools cultivating effective relationships between staff, students and parents in
order to share accountability for preparing students to enter the adult world with all
options available to them. We believe that every student is unique and learns at his
or her own pace and that every student can learn.
http://www.flagstaff.k12.az.us/board/index.htm
"Members of the Flagstaff Unified School District Governing Board are elected public officials who serve as the decision-making body for the District. They set policies and decide appeals of administrative decisions. They hire the Superintendent of Schools to run the District on their behalf.
The Governing Board members represent the community. Constituents are encouraged to contact Board members with concerns and comments about schools at either the building or the District level. "
Deborah Harris President 12-31-10 928/527-6002
928/527-6015 deborah.harris@nau.edu
Beth Heerding Clerk 12-31-12 928/527-6002
928/527-6015 flagstaffhomes@yahoo.com
Christopher J. Bavasi Member 12-31-12 928/527-6002
928/527-6015 cjbavasi@onhir.gov
Sara Aleman Member 12-31-10 928/527-6002 928/527-6015 sara.aleman@nau.edu
Paul Kulpinski Member 12-31-12 928/527-6002 928/527-6015
kids@kulpinski.net
Aleman's and Harris' terms end in 2010. Surely some TAG parents are in a situation to be able to run for these offices. "
District Statement of Vision, Expectations and Goals
We visualize our schools to be communities where students feel safe, welcomed and
accepted, while being challenged to demonstrate their HIGHEST potential. We see our
schools cultivating effective relationships between staff, students and parents in
order to share accountability for preparing students to enter the adult world with all
options available to them. We believe that every student is unique and learns at his
or her own pace and that every student can learn.
http://www.flagstaff.k12.az.us/board/index.htm
"Members of the Flagstaff Unified School District Governing Board are elected public officials who serve as the decision-making body for the District. They set policies and decide appeals of administrative decisions. They hire the Superintendent of Schools to run the District on their behalf.
The Governing Board members represent the community. Constituents are encouraged to contact Board members with concerns and comments about schools at either the building or the District level. "
Deborah Harris President 12-31-10 928/527-6002
928/527-6015 deborah.harris@nau.edu
Beth Heerding Clerk 12-31-12 928/527-6002
928/527-6015 flagstaffhomes@yahoo.com
Christopher J. Bavasi Member 12-31-12 928/527-6002
928/527-6015 cjbavasi@onhir.gov
Sara Aleman Member 12-31-10 928/527-6002 928/527-6015 sara.aleman@nau.edu
Paul Kulpinski Member 12-31-12 928/527-6002 928/527-6015
kids@kulpinski.net
Aleman's and Harris' terms end in 2010. Surely some TAG parents are in a situation to be able to run for these offices. "
Julie wrote on Jul 8, 2009 12:05 PM:
" Will this meeting be streamed or podcast to the web so that those of us who cannot be there may observe? It seems they don't want any public input but at least we can all be informed of their intentions.
Would someone please publish the relevant links?? Or will a parent who can attend record the session and post it on You Tube or some other accessible place and let us know. Thanks. "
Would someone please publish the relevant links?? Or will a parent who can attend record the session and post it on You Tube or some other accessible place and let us know. Thanks. "
Tater wrote on Jul 8, 2009 11:58 AM:
" kr---If you are inclined to turn your children over to "the village" for education, would it not make sense to look for a "village" that has the capacity to educate them? FUSD has an insatiable appetitie for public funds that this town and state is not willing or capable of providing. When you finally grasp that notion, what you need to do will become clearer. "
kr wrote on Jul 8, 2009 9:04 AM:
" Tater wrote on Jul 6, 2009 7:45 PM:
Priorities again. My first responsibility is to my own kids. I think most other parents would share that view. That excuse would be off my table.
I would say this is part of why we have the problems we have in our society. Being concerned only with ourselves and our immediate families as an extension of that self is a problem. We are all interdependent upon one another. The sooner we recognize that and start working towards ideas and systems that help more than just ourselves the better our world will be. I don't consider the decision to work towards a better community to be an excuse. I consider it a responsibility.
But we don't have that public school system, which is why we are having this debate. At this point, I would be leery of the quality of anything FUSD offered up to satisfy the irate parents of gifted kids. Clearly FUSD doesn't have the resources to provide the education opportunities you want.
So since we don't have that public school system we should just give up and walk away from our community? FUSD has the resources to provide an excellent education if they simply redistribute how they use those resources or at least utilize them better. As for the quality of what they have to offer, we can only wait and see what their plan is. "
Priorities again. My first responsibility is to my own kids. I think most other parents would share that view. That excuse would be off my table.
I would say this is part of why we have the problems we have in our society. Being concerned only with ourselves and our immediate families as an extension of that self is a problem. We are all interdependent upon one another. The sooner we recognize that and start working towards ideas and systems that help more than just ourselves the better our world will be. I don't consider the decision to work towards a better community to be an excuse. I consider it a responsibility.
But we don't have that public school system, which is why we are having this debate. At this point, I would be leery of the quality of anything FUSD offered up to satisfy the irate parents of gifted kids. Clearly FUSD doesn't have the resources to provide the education opportunities you want.
So since we don't have that public school system we should just give up and walk away from our community? FUSD has the resources to provide an excellent education if they simply redistribute how they use those resources or at least utilize them better. As for the quality of what they have to offer, we can only wait and see what their plan is. "
Tater wrote on Jul 7, 2009 6:28 PM:
" JK wrote on Jul 7, 2009 7:52 AM:
Tater: "My first responsibility is to my own kids. I think most other parents would share that view. That excuse would be off my table."
"A short-sighted view. Gifted people tend to have a more acute sense of moral values."
My bad. I thought we were talking about the gifted "kids". "
Tater: "My first responsibility is to my own kids. I think most other parents would share that view. That excuse would be off my table."
"A short-sighted view. Gifted people tend to have a more acute sense of moral values."
My bad. I thought we were talking about the gifted "kids". "
Listen Up wrote on Jul 7, 2009 8:50 AM:
" If this is so important to everyone here, I hope that we all show up to the school board meeting worksession on the 14th, or write letters to them, or both. They represent the town and need to know what is important to us and what we value as critical for our kids. "
JK wrote on Jul 7, 2009 7:52 AM:
" "My first responsibility is to my own kids. I think most other parents would share that view. That excuse would be off my table."
A short-sighted view.
Gifted people tend to have a more acute sense of moral values. They are not perfect people but they tend to feel badly about imperfections. Having a wider sense of responsibility towards others is one of the signs of a higher intelligence... they see the linkages of their own situation to that of others. It has to be beaten out of them.
Watch the people who quietly volunteer time around town on various community service projects, who are advocates of causes they will not personally profit from, that their own children will not benefit from --- it's like an automatic IQ test. Most of the Founding Fathers of the US were gifted -- it was unusual for such a large cluster to be in a limited geographical area -- most had to neglect their own families and/or put them at risk to get the job done (like John Adams, for example.) but look what they were able to accomplish for all of us.
One can often tell who uses higher intelligence by their understanding of delayed gratification. The marshmallow test is an indicator at a very young age...
see TED.com for "don't Eat the Marshmallow"... some interesting long-term research done at Stanford:
"Once Mischel began analyzing the results, he noticed that low delayers, the children (4 yrs old) who rang the bell quickly, seemed more likely to have behavioral problems, both in school and at home. They got lower S.A.T. scores. They struggled in stressful situations, often had trouble paying attention, and found it difficult to maintain friendships. The child who could wait fifteen minutes had an S.A.T. score that was, on average, two hundred and ten points higher than that of the kid who could wait only thirty seconds."
A TED video, often humourous, is at the bottom of the page at:
http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/25977 The researcher in the video (not the original researcher at Stanford) thinks that training kids to delay eating the marshmallow will produce the desirable results -- he misses the point. Children with the desirable traits understand about not eating the marshmallow without special training.
FUSD doesn't lack the resources for good education of the gifted -- they only lack the will. It isn't an expensive program like ESL or drug education or band or anything athletic. "
A short-sighted view.
Gifted people tend to have a more acute sense of moral values. They are not perfect people but they tend to feel badly about imperfections. Having a wider sense of responsibility towards others is one of the signs of a higher intelligence... they see the linkages of their own situation to that of others. It has to be beaten out of them.
Watch the people who quietly volunteer time around town on various community service projects, who are advocates of causes they will not personally profit from, that their own children will not benefit from --- it's like an automatic IQ test. Most of the Founding Fathers of the US were gifted -- it was unusual for such a large cluster to be in a limited geographical area -- most had to neglect their own families and/or put them at risk to get the job done (like John Adams, for example.) but look what they were able to accomplish for all of us.
One can often tell who uses higher intelligence by their understanding of delayed gratification. The marshmallow test is an indicator at a very young age...
see TED.com for "don't Eat the Marshmallow"... some interesting long-term research done at Stanford:
"Once Mischel began analyzing the results, he noticed that low delayers, the children (4 yrs old) who rang the bell quickly, seemed more likely to have behavioral problems, both in school and at home. They got lower S.A.T. scores. They struggled in stressful situations, often had trouble paying attention, and found it difficult to maintain friendships. The child who could wait fifteen minutes had an S.A.T. score that was, on average, two hundred and ten points higher than that of the kid who could wait only thirty seconds."
A TED video, often humourous, is at the bottom of the page at:
http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/25977 The researcher in the video (not the original researcher at Stanford) thinks that training kids to delay eating the marshmallow will produce the desirable results -- he misses the point. Children with the desirable traits understand about not eating the marshmallow without special training.
FUSD doesn't lack the resources for good education of the gifted -- they only lack the will. It isn't an expensive program like ESL or drug education or band or anything athletic. "
Tater wrote on Jul 6, 2009 7:45 PM:
" kr---"I am currently looking at some options, however most of them would require us to move. I hate to pull him away from his friends and family."
You have to have your priorities. I would weigh the disruption to the family heavily too.
"On the upside, he does have the advantage of growing up in a household with 3 people with college degrees who are willing to provide extra education at home."
Not necessarily a plus, unless you are skilled at gifted education. From what I've read here, it takes special skills and training to motivate gifted children. Though you might be able to help with the extra homework that used to pass as gifted education, a boring book at school isn't going to be any more appealing at home.
"However, I also feel that even though I can move and provide a better place for him, as a citizen of Flagstaff I have a responsibility to all the kids in the school system not just my child. "
Priorities again. My first responsibility is to my own kids. I think most other parents would share that view. That excuse would be off my table.
"We should have a public school system that can provide for all students."
But we don't have that public school system, which is why we are having this debate. At this point, I would be leery of the quality of anything FUSD offered up to satisfy the irate parents of gifted kids. Clearly FUSD doesn't have the resources to provide the education opportunities you want. "
You have to have your priorities. I would weigh the disruption to the family heavily too.
"On the upside, he does have the advantage of growing up in a household with 3 people with college degrees who are willing to provide extra education at home."
Not necessarily a plus, unless you are skilled at gifted education. From what I've read here, it takes special skills and training to motivate gifted children. Though you might be able to help with the extra homework that used to pass as gifted education, a boring book at school isn't going to be any more appealing at home.
"However, I also feel that even though I can move and provide a better place for him, as a citizen of Flagstaff I have a responsibility to all the kids in the school system not just my child. "
Priorities again. My first responsibility is to my own kids. I think most other parents would share that view. That excuse would be off my table.
"We should have a public school system that can provide for all students."
But we don't have that public school system, which is why we are having this debate. At this point, I would be leery of the quality of anything FUSD offered up to satisfy the irate parents of gifted kids. Clearly FUSD doesn't have the resources to provide the education opportunities you want. "
kr wrote on Jul 5, 2009 9:51 PM:
" Tater wrote on Jul 3, 2009 12:42 AM:
" kr---If your son is ready for learning three grades ahead of his peers, that's one smart little guy. Surely there are scholarship opportunities for kids like him to be educated outside the public school system. Have you explored that as an option? "
I am currently looking at some options, however most of them would require us to move. I hate to pull him away from his friends and family. On the upside, he does have the advantage of growing up in a household with 3 people with college degrees who are willing to provide extra education at home. However, I also feel that even though I can move and provide a better place for him, as a citizen of Flagstaff I have a responsibility to all the kids in the school system not just my child. As I have mentioned, not all children have parents with an income or a job that would allow them to move to a private school. We should have a public school system that can provide for all students. "
" kr---If your son is ready for learning three grades ahead of his peers, that's one smart little guy. Surely there are scholarship opportunities for kids like him to be educated outside the public school system. Have you explored that as an option? "
I am currently looking at some options, however most of them would require us to move. I hate to pull him away from his friends and family. On the upside, he does have the advantage of growing up in a household with 3 people with college degrees who are willing to provide extra education at home. However, I also feel that even though I can move and provide a better place for him, as a citizen of Flagstaff I have a responsibility to all the kids in the school system not just my child. As I have mentioned, not all children have parents with an income or a job that would allow them to move to a private school. We should have a public school system that can provide for all students. "
Lisa wrote on Jul 4, 2009 11:09 AM:
" NAU has little to offer the gifted child.
Teachers studying for a certificate in gifted education at NAU generally have to do their internship at some other place to get experience with actual gifted children.
Acceleration(moving into regular classes a grade or two or three ahead) is not the same as gifted education. Most people fail to see the distinction. Acceleration is something you do to children when nothing else is available for them as a last resort. My husband entered MIT at 16 so I know whereof I speak.
By the way, gifted education is not very expensive. The biggest expense is due to the somewhat smaller class size per teacher. Typically it costs far less than a running team and far less than band or ESL. But those expensive programs are either popular with local businesses who sell the equipment or demanded by parents who have lawyers. The article says the teachers of the gifted only work part-time: that is a big savings right there. "
Teachers studying for a certificate in gifted education at NAU generally have to do their internship at some other place to get experience with actual gifted children.
Acceleration(moving into regular classes a grade or two or three ahead) is not the same as gifted education. Most people fail to see the distinction. Acceleration is something you do to children when nothing else is available for them as a last resort. My husband entered MIT at 16 so I know whereof I speak.
By the way, gifted education is not very expensive. The biggest expense is due to the somewhat smaller class size per teacher. Typically it costs far less than a running team and far less than band or ESL. But those expensive programs are either popular with local businesses who sell the equipment or demanded by parents who have lawyers. The article says the teachers of the gifted only work part-time: that is a big savings right there. "
Anne wrote on Jul 4, 2009 10:17 AM:
" "it would be a prudent strategy for parents to place them in an environment that allows them the opportunty to make the grades."
It might seem so. But once you teach them to conform to "get the grade" how do you then teach them not to ask continually "what do you want me to be" or "how do you want me to answer" instead of approaching knowledge for itself and looking for truth in it? Gifted students in studying while trying to conform will often study to remember what they are not yet supposed to know instead of studying to learn. Teaching children to put on a mask is sometimes the worst thing you can do to them - it often grows to their face like in the old Outer Limits episode. What is the point of finally getting the scholarship to an appropriate education if you become ruined for that appropriate education in the process?
The very value of the gifted is their ability to look at information with fresh eyes and to bring new information from it and from direct observation. Discard them at your own peril.
A mind IS a terrible thing to waste. "
It might seem so. But once you teach them to conform to "get the grade" how do you then teach them not to ask continually "what do you want me to be" or "how do you want me to answer" instead of approaching knowledge for itself and looking for truth in it? Gifted students in studying while trying to conform will often study to remember what they are not yet supposed to know instead of studying to learn. Teaching children to put on a mask is sometimes the worst thing you can do to them - it often grows to their face like in the old Outer Limits episode. What is the point of finally getting the scholarship to an appropriate education if you become ruined for that appropriate education in the process?
The very value of the gifted is their ability to look at information with fresh eyes and to bring new information from it and from direct observation. Discard them at your own peril.
A mind IS a terrible thing to waste. "
JK wrote on Jul 4, 2009 8:04 AM:
" "Isn't that the point? To challenge the gifted kids to work hard and achieve beyond their peers? "
The point is not to punish them for hard work. And unweighted grades are punishment. Gifted children aren't fools - they soon catch on to what is unfair.
If you had a gifted child you would know there are very few opportunities except for the children with well-to-do parents. Unfortunately, gifted children also come from the humblest of homes. Some are even homeless.
As I said before there are very few merit scholarships and most are for programs far from Flagstaff. Do you really want the public school system to have low expectations and opportunities so that it becomes known as not a very worthwhile place for college recruiters to come. (FUSD already has something of that reputation - FALA students get the best opportunities). "
The point is not to punish them for hard work. And unweighted grades are punishment. Gifted children aren't fools - they soon catch on to what is unfair.
If you had a gifted child you would know there are very few opportunities except for the children with well-to-do parents. Unfortunately, gifted children also come from the humblest of homes. Some are even homeless.
As I said before there are very few merit scholarships and most are for programs far from Flagstaff. Do you really want the public school system to have low expectations and opportunities so that it becomes known as not a very worthwhile place for college recruiters to come. (FUSD already has something of that reputation - FALA students get the best opportunities). "
Tater wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:25 PM:
" "Gifted children may have to do twice the work for the same A if in an accelerated program as compared to their age peers . . . "
Isn't that the point? To challenge the gifted kids to work hard and achieve beyond their peers?
". . . so they are often penalized for unweighted grades when applying for scholarships."
If grades are the deciding factor in awarding scholarship for private K-12 education, it would be a prudent strategy for parents to place them in an environment that allows them the opportunty to make the grades.
The "gifted" education can come from the private educational opportunities the scholarship provides.
I'm just sayin.....there are options for these 3 percenters. Venting at the school board and hiring lawyers isn't likely to deliver results. There simply isn't any more money. Maybe its time for another look at a partnership with NAU to assist with these gifted kids. That could be a win-win. "
Isn't that the point? To challenge the gifted kids to work hard and achieve beyond their peers?
". . . so they are often penalized for unweighted grades when applying for scholarships."
If grades are the deciding factor in awarding scholarship for private K-12 education, it would be a prudent strategy for parents to place them in an environment that allows them the opportunty to make the grades.
The "gifted" education can come from the private educational opportunities the scholarship provides.
I'm just sayin.....there are options for these 3 percenters. Venting at the school board and hiring lawyers isn't likely to deliver results. There simply isn't any more money. Maybe its time for another look at a partnership with NAU to assist with these gifted kids. That could be a win-win. "
JK wrote on Jul 3, 2009 7:57 PM:
" Do you really want to lower expectations and opportunities for the kids in the public school system of Flagstaff by sending the gifted elsewhere??? "
jk wrote on Jul 3, 2009 11:53 AM:
" There are very few scholarships based on merit in Arizona and most of them are based on grades... grades are often based on obeisance not necessarily on ability. Gifted children may have to do twice the work for the same A if in an accelerated program as compared to their age peers so they are often penalized for unweighted grades when applying for scholarships.
AAGT does have some scholarships for gifted classes and camps -- mostly at ASU or UofA. NAU hasn't much of a gifted program, if any. Because most of the programs are a few hundred miles away they really don't help young gifted children in FLG. Verde Valley and Window Rock have some but probably for their own residents. "
AAGT does have some scholarships for gifted classes and camps -- mostly at ASU or UofA. NAU hasn't much of a gifted program, if any. Because most of the programs are a few hundred miles away they really don't help young gifted children in FLG. Verde Valley and Window Rock have some but probably for their own residents. "
Tater wrote on Jul 3, 2009 12:42 AM:
" kr---If your son is ready for learning three grades ahead of his peers, that's one smart little guy. Surely there are scholarship opportunities for kids like him to be educated outside the public school system. Have you explored that as an option? "
Tater wrote on Jul 3, 2009 12:31 AM:
" "First, not everyone can get vouchers."
Is it time to have a national debate about that?
Second, short of doing something illegal for the money there are many parents who can not provide a private school education for their children."
Heck, most parents can't afford private education, and most of those who can, complain about the cost. All the more reason to have that debate.
"Third, I would argue that even those people who do not have kids enrolled in school, benefit from an excelling education system."
I agree with you. Most people have no problem connecting those dots, but there is a limit to which we are willing to pay, especially if we have no children enrolled. "
Is it time to have a national debate about that?
Second, short of doing something illegal for the money there are many parents who can not provide a private school education for their children."
Heck, most parents can't afford private education, and most of those who can, complain about the cost. All the more reason to have that debate.
"Third, I would argue that even those people who do not have kids enrolled in school, benefit from an excelling education system."
I agree with you. Most people have no problem connecting those dots, but there is a limit to which we are willing to pay, especially if we have no children enrolled. "
Mary O. wrote on Jul 2, 2009 11:30 AM:
" "Children thought to be precocious in large part don't grow up to become any smarter than anyone else"
This is untrue if we are talking giftedness.
"Thought to be precocious" is an ambiguous term involving many who are not gifted in the legal sense of the term. What is your definition of "smarter" as an adult? As with all ambiguity you can say just about whatever you want. But if we are talking giftedness then they do grow up more intellectually active than others - it may manifest in diverse [ and often unexpected] ways.
One sampling is at TED.com
As for not passing reading though very gifted at it I can only recall my eldest son when he was in danger of being held back a grade... at school he had found it easier to not turn in any book reports which he considered tedious and boring. He had read the books but thought them dull and not worthy of comment. The teacher had felt sorry for him because he thought he couldn't read so didn't push him and he did not give us a call or mention any problem at the parents' night. So we were quite astonished at the end of the term since he was reading at least two grade levels ahead at home and sharing my science journals and magazines. The teacher had not looked at my son's file which would have told him he was dealing with a little boy with an IQ of at least 160 (as high as the test would go at that age level). Well he wasn't held back. The teacher was embarrassed and apologized. My son and I had a discussion about school work. The following term the principal assigned my son to a teacher who worked well with gifted boys[and computers]. The term he wasn't doing book reports he was, at home, writing machine code for funny computer games for his little siblings on our tiny VIC 20. His first job out of highschool was doing development work for IBM and 20 years later he works as software engineer for one of the top math firms in the country. He has not yet completed a college degree. He has held top leadership positions in professional societies. Such is the paradoxical nature of giftedness. "
This is untrue if we are talking giftedness.
"Thought to be precocious" is an ambiguous term involving many who are not gifted in the legal sense of the term. What is your definition of "smarter" as an adult? As with all ambiguity you can say just about whatever you want. But if we are talking giftedness then they do grow up more intellectually active than others - it may manifest in diverse [ and often unexpected] ways.
One sampling is at TED.com
As for not passing reading though very gifted at it I can only recall my eldest son when he was in danger of being held back a grade... at school he had found it easier to not turn in any book reports which he considered tedious and boring. He had read the books but thought them dull and not worthy of comment. The teacher had felt sorry for him because he thought he couldn't read so didn't push him and he did not give us a call or mention any problem at the parents' night. So we were quite astonished at the end of the term since he was reading at least two grade levels ahead at home and sharing my science journals and magazines. The teacher had not looked at my son's file which would have told him he was dealing with a little boy with an IQ of at least 160 (as high as the test would go at that age level). Well he wasn't held back. The teacher was embarrassed and apologized. My son and I had a discussion about school work. The following term the principal assigned my son to a teacher who worked well with gifted boys[and computers]. The term he wasn't doing book reports he was, at home, writing machine code for funny computer games for his little siblings on our tiny VIC 20. His first job out of highschool was doing development work for IBM and 20 years later he works as software engineer for one of the top math firms in the country. He has not yet completed a college degree. He has held top leadership positions in professional societies. Such is the paradoxical nature of giftedness. "
Flag mom wrote on Jul 2, 2009 10:34 AM:
" If you have smart kids in FUSD, go to the session on July 14. If they won't let you talk, hold up signs. Make a fuss. They probably won't listen, but at least you can say you tried. As usual, kids will leave FUSD so they can have smaller class sizes, and work that challenges them instead of dumbing things down. And the board will scratch their heads about why, and decide to have a new magnet school or something stupid like that. "
kr wrote on Jul 1, 2009 8:15 PM:
" Tater wrote on Jul 1, 2009 11:43 AM:
" " My son was failing in class simply out of boredom. I myself had the same issue as a child when I was failing reading. Not because I couldn't read but because I found the books they were giving me too boring. "
That doesn't make sense to me. I could understand maybe failing a reading comprehension class due to boredom, but if you can read a book, no matter how boring, how do you flunk reading? I don't know if "Fun With Dick and Jane" ever made Oprah's book club list, but it taught me how to read.
Because if you refuse to read the book at all, you can't pass a test on the book. (I am not saying it was the right thing to do, but it seemed like the right thing at the time.)
It's not a question of if he CAN skip the grade. It's a decision parents have to make about whether skipping a grade would be beneficial or in the best interest of the child. Are you willing to trade his emotional and psychological development for his academic development? With today's budgets, expecting public schools to give each child the individual attention parents demand is simply not reasonable. Sure we can pass laws and sue the school, but it still seems like an unreasonable demand to me.
When I said he could skip the grade, I meant the School has indicated he is capable of performing the school work at that level. I was attempting to make the point that it is not a good idea to do so. As you say it could sacrifice his emotional and psycological health. I don't expect a truly individualized attention, but I do expect the schools to follow the state mandates regarding education. Gifted is a state mandated education program and as such the schools must provide an appropriate program for gifted students. If it can't be done with the budget we have, then the laws and mandates should be changed in a legal manner. We ignore our government at our own peril. If we don't force our government to be accountable, who will.
Because you want your son to have more than just a decent education, which I would argue, public school is very capable of providing. If you want him to have an EXCELLENT education, then you do whatever it takes to provide it. School vouchers has been very successful in helping parents move their kids from failing schools into private ones. The NEA doesn't think its a good idea, but I've never heard of a parent turning down the vouchers. I might add, there are more people paying taxes for the schools who never have, and never will have kids in school, than there are parents who do have kids enrolled.
First, not everyone can get vouchers. Second, short of doing something illegal for the money there are many parents who can not provide a private school education for their children. Third, I would argue that even those people who do not have kids enrolled in school, benefit from an excelling education system. Business owners, government leaders, and society as a whole would be much better off if all people have an excellent education. "
" " My son was failing in class simply out of boredom. I myself had the same issue as a child when I was failing reading. Not because I couldn't read but because I found the books they were giving me too boring. "
That doesn't make sense to me. I could understand maybe failing a reading comprehension class due to boredom, but if you can read a book, no matter how boring, how do you flunk reading? I don't know if "Fun With Dick and Jane" ever made Oprah's book club list, but it taught me how to read.
Because if you refuse to read the book at all, you can't pass a test on the book. (I am not saying it was the right thing to do, but it seemed like the right thing at the time.)
It's not a question of if he CAN skip the grade. It's a decision parents have to make about whether skipping a grade would be beneficial or in the best interest of the child. Are you willing to trade his emotional and psychological development for his academic development? With today's budgets, expecting public schools to give each child the individual attention parents demand is simply not reasonable. Sure we can pass laws and sue the school, but it still seems like an unreasonable demand to me.
When I said he could skip the grade, I meant the School has indicated he is capable of performing the school work at that level. I was attempting to make the point that it is not a good idea to do so. As you say it could sacrifice his emotional and psycological health. I don't expect a truly individualized attention, but I do expect the schools to follow the state mandates regarding education. Gifted is a state mandated education program and as such the schools must provide an appropriate program for gifted students. If it can't be done with the budget we have, then the laws and mandates should be changed in a legal manner. We ignore our government at our own peril. If we don't force our government to be accountable, who will.
Because you want your son to have more than just a decent education, which I would argue, public school is very capable of providing. If you want him to have an EXCELLENT education, then you do whatever it takes to provide it. School vouchers has been very successful in helping parents move their kids from failing schools into private ones. The NEA doesn't think its a good idea, but I've never heard of a parent turning down the vouchers. I might add, there are more people paying taxes for the schools who never have, and never will have kids in school, than there are parents who do have kids enrolled.
First, not everyone can get vouchers. Second, short of doing something illegal for the money there are many parents who can not provide a private school education for their children. Third, I would argue that even those people who do not have kids enrolled in school, benefit from an excelling education system. Business owners, government leaders, and society as a whole would be much better off if all people have an excellent education. "
Reader wrote on Jul 1, 2009 6:32 PM:
" Gifted education doesn't work. Read "Outliers" by Malcom Gladwell.
Children thought to be precocious in large part don't grow up to become any smarter than anyone else -- there is lots of research on this. The money spent on "gifted" programs would be better spent getting the children with inattentive parents up to speed. "
Children thought to be precocious in large part don't grow up to become any smarter than anyone else -- there is lots of research on this. The money spent on "gifted" programs would be better spent getting the children with inattentive parents up to speed. "
JK wrote on Jul 1, 2009 12:28 PM:
" Simply adding more work is one way to assure extinction of any sign of giftedness by the student.. A brilliant student will resent the extra work and not having time to pursue other interests. As Joseph Campbell used to say, you can send a girl to Vassar but you can't MAKE her think.
According to state law the top 3% via approved standardized testing MUST be served . Other students MAY be served. Yes, the tests are nationally standardized. Local populations of gifted may vary either way -- some areas may only have 1% gifted or less (particularly true when good education is unavailable and the parents of the gifted decide to move to areas better supplied). For example, in Arizona, there are many successful gifted programs and camps in the Tempe/Mesa area because of the hard work of Willard Abraham in the 1950's at ASU and his successors. So there are higher than normal clusters of gifted children (and teachers of the gifted) within driving distance of Tempe. [http://openlibrary.org/a/OL541403A/Willard-Abraham]
Similarly for the excellent gifted programs at the U of A.
Programs like the International Baccalaureate may attract gifted students and honors students both - it is a relief for many gifted students to have independent evaluation of their work by academics who have never met them. [A classroom teacher may be biased in favor of or against a student by various factors such as appearance, manners or lack of them, and so on. Teachers grading students they have never met and their students being graded by an academic they have never met changes the dynamic of the classroom. It puts the focus on the quality of work instead of superficialities. ] The International Baccalaureate degree guarantees admission to top-notch world-class universities. And often up to 2 years of academic credit is awarded by the universities on the basis of the IB degree which may save the parents up to two years of tuition ($20-40,000) and saves the students two years of their lives. An excellent program.
Others than gifted students may be served by a gifted program at the discretion of the local school district. This is often done to increase class size and work load for the teacher. Sometimes it is done so liberally that there is no difference between a gifted and a regular classroom - in which case parents of the gifted may ask for an IEP for their children. This usually brings the district back into a better level of compliance.
Honors students with straight A's and doing many accelerated courses may or may not also be gifted. A gifted child may point out errors the teacher has made (and not always tactfully) and be punished for it grade-wise. Einstein was a very mediocre student according to his grades and hated school. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard to do something more interesting. Many engineers and scientists have rather mediocre grades in areas they are not interested in.
A gifted program needs to serve gifted children [that top 3%] appropriately whether or not they are honors students or accelerated. Most school administrators have a lot of trouble understanding this unless they have training in gifted education themselves (a rare circumstance). Identifying gifted children (telling a bored gifted from an incapable student, for example) is a matter for specialists. The quality of a school district is determined by its identification procedures. Parents can request testing independent of the school district (recommended). "
According to state law the top 3% via approved standardized testing MUST be served . Other students MAY be served. Yes, the tests are nationally standardized. Local populations of gifted may vary either way -- some areas may only have 1% gifted or less (particularly true when good education is unavailable and the parents of the gifted decide to move to areas better supplied). For example, in Arizona, there are many successful gifted programs and camps in the Tempe/Mesa area because of the hard work of Willard Abraham in the 1950's at ASU and his successors. So there are higher than normal clusters of gifted children (and teachers of the gifted) within driving distance of Tempe. [http://openlibrary.org/a/OL541403A/Willard-Abraham]
Similarly for the excellent gifted programs at the U of A.
Programs like the International Baccalaureate may attract gifted students and honors students both - it is a relief for many gifted students to have independent evaluation of their work by academics who have never met them. [A classroom teacher may be biased in favor of or against a student by various factors such as appearance, manners or lack of them, and so on. Teachers grading students they have never met and their students being graded by an academic they have never met changes the dynamic of the classroom. It puts the focus on the quality of work instead of superficialities. ] The International Baccalaureate degree guarantees admission to top-notch world-class universities. And often up to 2 years of academic credit is awarded by the universities on the basis of the IB degree which may save the parents up to two years of tuition ($20-40,000) and saves the students two years of their lives. An excellent program.
Others than gifted students may be served by a gifted program at the discretion of the local school district. This is often done to increase class size and work load for the teacher. Sometimes it is done so liberally that there is no difference between a gifted and a regular classroom - in which case parents of the gifted may ask for an IEP for their children. This usually brings the district back into a better level of compliance.
Honors students with straight A's and doing many accelerated courses may or may not also be gifted. A gifted child may point out errors the teacher has made (and not always tactfully) and be punished for it grade-wise. Einstein was a very mediocre student according to his grades and hated school. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard to do something more interesting. Many engineers and scientists have rather mediocre grades in areas they are not interested in.
A gifted program needs to serve gifted children [that top 3%] appropriately whether or not they are honors students or accelerated. Most school administrators have a lot of trouble understanding this unless they have training in gifted education themselves (a rare circumstance). Identifying gifted children (telling a bored gifted from an incapable student, for example) is a matter for specialists. The quality of a school district is determined by its identification procedures. Parents can request testing independent of the school district (recommended). "
Tater wrote on Jul 1, 2009 11:43 AM:
" " My son was failing in class simply out of boredom. I myself had the same issue as a child when I was failing reading. Not because I couldn't read but because I found the books they were giving me too boring. "
That doesn't make sense to me. I could understand maybe failing a reading comprehension class due to boredom, but if you can read a book, no matter how boring, how do you flunk reading? I don't know if "Fun With Dick and Jane" ever made Oprah's book club list, but it taught me how to read.
"My son could have skipped two grades. He is at a point now where he could skip three grades. As the youngest in his class currently that would put him with kids 4 and even 5 years older..."
It's not a question of if he CAN skip the grade. It's a decision parents have to make about whether skipping a grade would be beneficial or in the best interest of the child. Are you willing to trade his emotional and psychological development for his academic development? With today's budgets, expecting public schools to give each child the individual attention parents demand is simply not reasonable. Sure we can pass laws and sue the school, but it still seems like an unreasonable demand to me.
"Finally, not all parents have the financial ability to put their kids in a private school.....Why should I have to pay for both a public school via taxes, as well as a private school in order to ensure a decent education for my son? "
Because you want your son to have more than just a decent education, which I would argue, public school is very capable of providing. If you want him to have an EXCELLENT education, then you do whatever it takes to provide it. School vouchers has been very successful in helping parents move their kids from failing schools into private ones. The NEA doesn't think its a good idea, but I've never heard of a parent turning down the vouchers. I might add, there are more people paying taxes for the schools who never have, and never will have kids in school, than there are parents who do have kids enrolled. "
That doesn't make sense to me. I could understand maybe failing a reading comprehension class due to boredom, but if you can read a book, no matter how boring, how do you flunk reading? I don't know if "Fun With Dick and Jane" ever made Oprah's book club list, but it taught me how to read.
"My son could have skipped two grades. He is at a point now where he could skip three grades. As the youngest in his class currently that would put him with kids 4 and even 5 years older..."
It's not a question of if he CAN skip the grade. It's a decision parents have to make about whether skipping a grade would be beneficial or in the best interest of the child. Are you willing to trade his emotional and psychological development for his academic development? With today's budgets, expecting public schools to give each child the individual attention parents demand is simply not reasonable. Sure we can pass laws and sue the school, but it still seems like an unreasonable demand to me.
"Finally, not all parents have the financial ability to put their kids in a private school.....Why should I have to pay for both a public school via taxes, as well as a private school in order to ensure a decent education for my son? "
Because you want your son to have more than just a decent education, which I would argue, public school is very capable of providing. If you want him to have an EXCELLENT education, then you do whatever it takes to provide it. School vouchers has been very successful in helping parents move their kids from failing schools into private ones. The NEA doesn't think its a good idea, but I've never heard of a parent turning down the vouchers. I might add, there are more people paying taxes for the schools who never have, and never will have kids in school, than there are parents who do have kids enrolled. "
Charter mom wrote on Jul 1, 2009 11:22 AM:
" We went through TAG at FUSD.. it was always a struggle to get the principal to give TAG the time it deserved. I'm so grateful for Charter schools now! I feel sympathy for those from Above and Beyond, who were promised one thing and given another. I wish there was room at our school for your kids. You should consider starting a charter, all you parents out there, who are sick and tired of how poorly FUSD values your kids. "
kr wrote on Jul 1, 2009 8:08 AM:
" JK wrote on Jun 29, 2009 6:44 AM:
" 97percentile means there are about 3 of every 100 students who would be gifted. So in a high school of 1000 students there would be, on average, 30 gifted students spread over the three grades. A district may identify other students it deems to benefit from gifted education so there may be more in the program but those 30 must be served according to Arizona law. Since some of these students, the ones with the financial resources, have already left for private schooling or are doing studies at one of the colleges in the area, the actual population may be even smaller. "
I would like to point out the percentile is based on national scoring not just at a district or school level so it is possible to have a much higher rate. I know my son's school has a ratio of about 5 per 100 students. In addition, there are many students that are not tested because they are not excelling in class but they may still qualify. My son was failing in class simply out of boredom. It took me calling and putting the pressure on the school to get him tested. I myself had the same issue as a child when I was failing reading. Not because I couldn't read but because I found the books they were giving me too boring.
Simply adding work for the students will not really help them excel. It may make them quieter or more manageable in class. Skipping grades does not always work either. Someone had pointed out that it would be wrong to put a 10 year old in with 13 year olds. What about kids with late birthdays. My son could have skipped two grades. He is at a point now where he could skip three grades. As the youngest in his class currently that would put him with kids 4 and even 5 years older. No matter how intelligent he is, he is not emotionally prepared to socialize with kids that much older. Finally, not all parents have the financial ability to put their kids in a private school. We pay taxes, a lot of taxes, and that money is supposed to support our local schools. Why should I have to pay for both a public school via taxes, as well as a private school in order to ensure a decent education for my son? "
" 97percentile means there are about 3 of every 100 students who would be gifted. So in a high school of 1000 students there would be, on average, 30 gifted students spread over the three grades. A district may identify other students it deems to benefit from gifted education so there may be more in the program but those 30 must be served according to Arizona law. Since some of these students, the ones with the financial resources, have already left for private schooling or are doing studies at one of the colleges in the area, the actual population may be even smaller. "
I would like to point out the percentile is based on national scoring not just at a district or school level so it is possible to have a much higher rate. I know my son's school has a ratio of about 5 per 100 students. In addition, there are many students that are not tested because they are not excelling in class but they may still qualify. My son was failing in class simply out of boredom. It took me calling and putting the pressure on the school to get him tested. I myself had the same issue as a child when I was failing reading. Not because I couldn't read but because I found the books they were giving me too boring.
Simply adding work for the students will not really help them excel. It may make them quieter or more manageable in class. Skipping grades does not always work either. Someone had pointed out that it would be wrong to put a 10 year old in with 13 year olds. What about kids with late birthdays. My son could have skipped two grades. He is at a point now where he could skip three grades. As the youngest in his class currently that would put him with kids 4 and even 5 years older. No matter how intelligent he is, he is not emotionally prepared to socialize with kids that much older. Finally, not all parents have the financial ability to put their kids in a private school. We pay taxes, a lot of taxes, and that money is supposed to support our local schools. Why should I have to pay for both a public school via taxes, as well as a private school in order to ensure a decent education for my son? "
S. wrote on Jun 29, 2009 5:04 PM:
" Concerned Parent wrote on Jun 29, 2009 3:58 PM:
" I was quietly informed I could solve my issued with TAG being cut (as well as many other parents) by requesting an IEP for my Special Ed child - she is a TAG student scoring 100(40/40) on 2 of the 3 test and a 38/40 on the 3rd. When I get the results back, I am to ask for an aide for my child. This will require the district to get my child and Aide and this will get her the necessary teaching I believe she deserves. If all the TAG parents did this the district would have many one on one aids teaching TAG kids and maybe this would force them to create a magnet grade for the TAG kids - and interesting idea. "
A parent alone can not make the decision to get an aide for the child. That is an IEP team decision (everyone at the meeting gets a vote - student, parent, administrators, teachers, sped teacher, OT, psychologist, etc). The parent can disagree with the decision made by the team, but ultimately it would require a lawsuit in which the parent would have to show that the district is not providing a free, adequate public education in the least restrictive environment possible.
This whole situation is yet another byproduct of a state legislature that does not value education. Our state is consistently in the bottom for per pupil spending and teacher pay. FUSD can not much until the people in this state get out and vote - and not be afraid to have higher taxes if it goes to schools. "
" I was quietly informed I could solve my issued with TAG being cut (as well as many other parents) by requesting an IEP for my Special Ed child - she is a TAG student scoring 100(40/40) on 2 of the 3 test and a 38/40 on the 3rd. When I get the results back, I am to ask for an aide for my child. This will require the district to get my child and Aide and this will get her the necessary teaching I believe she deserves. If all the TAG parents did this the district would have many one on one aids teaching TAG kids and maybe this would force them to create a magnet grade for the TAG kids - and interesting idea. "
A parent alone can not make the decision to get an aide for the child. That is an IEP team decision (everyone at the meeting gets a vote - student, parent, administrators, teachers, sped teacher, OT, psychologist, etc). The parent can disagree with the decision made by the team, but ultimately it would require a lawsuit in which the parent would have to show that the district is not providing a free, adequate public education in the least restrictive environment possible.
This whole situation is yet another byproduct of a state legislature that does not value education. Our state is consistently in the bottom for per pupil spending and teacher pay. FUSD can not much until the people in this state get out and vote - and not be afraid to have higher taxes if it goes to schools. "
Concerned Parent wrote on Jun 29, 2009 3:58 PM:
" I was quietly informed I could solve my issued with TAG being cut (as well as many other parents) by requesting an IEP for my Special Ed child - she is a TAG student scoring 100(40/40) on 2 of the 3 test and a 38/40 on the 3rd. When I get the results back, I am to ask for an aide for my child. This will require the district to get my child and Aide and this will get her the necessary teaching I believe she deserves. If all the TAG parents did this the district would have many one on one aids teaching TAG kids and maybe this would force them to create a magnet grade for the TAG kids - and interesting idea. "
JK wrote on Jun 29, 2009 6:44 AM:
" 97percentile means there are about 3 of every 100 students who would be gifted. So in a high school of 1000 students there would be, on average, 30 gifted students spread over the three grades. A district may identify other students it deems to benefit from gifted education so there may be more in the program but those 30 must be served according to Arizona law. Since some of these students, the ones with the financial resources, have already left for private schooling or are doing studies at one of the colleges in the area, the actual population may be even smaller.
If you think because their numbers are small that it doesn't hurt the economy to deprive them of an appropriate education, think again. I suggest you contact the Flinn Foundation for some of their research into the matter.
I remember one such student who lived on a ranch in N. Az. He had to ride his small motorcycle into Kingman every Saturday to get tutoring in math and science because his high school could not provide (some actually think calculus is a frill in this day of derivative financing) -- he later became a Flinn scholar, one of the first from rural Arizona. His case was quite a cause for discussion because many in the Phoenix area did not realize how bad math and science education is in rural AZ. How few opportunities there are for bright students.
Many AZ schools do not even provide a real lab physics course or chemistry lab course in high school for regular students. And then adults sit around and wonder why salaries are so low (Average salary in Coconino Cty is $28,000/yr) or why AZ is rated at the bottom of the barrel compared to the rest of the US in education. Or why their kids require extra years of remedial work (and tuition) to get even one of the easier degrees at places like NAU... degrees that used to be obtainable by most college students in 4 years.
The Department of Education had to write their own tests (at the cost of about a billion dollars over the many years of ASAP and AIMS and other generations of tests) because it would be very embarrassing if AZ students took the same tests other states use. They would have to deny high school diplomas to about 60% of AZ high school students.
If a school can't provide for the gifted they also have a low ceiling for regular students.
Dawn Cole was the only Flinn scholar from Flagstaff this year. Congratulations to her. "
If you think because their numbers are small that it doesn't hurt the economy to deprive them of an appropriate education, think again. I suggest you contact the Flinn Foundation for some of their research into the matter.
I remember one such student who lived on a ranch in N. Az. He had to ride his small motorcycle into Kingman every Saturday to get tutoring in math and science because his high school could not provide (some actually think calculus is a frill in this day of derivative financing) -- he later became a Flinn scholar, one of the first from rural Arizona. His case was quite a cause for discussion because many in the Phoenix area did not realize how bad math and science education is in rural AZ. How few opportunities there are for bright students.
Many AZ schools do not even provide a real lab physics course or chemistry lab course in high school for regular students. And then adults sit around and wonder why salaries are so low (Average salary in Coconino Cty is $28,000/yr) or why AZ is rated at the bottom of the barrel compared to the rest of the US in education. Or why their kids require extra years of remedial work (and tuition) to get even one of the easier degrees at places like NAU... degrees that used to be obtainable by most college students in 4 years.
The Department of Education had to write their own tests (at the cost of about a billion dollars over the many years of ASAP and AIMS and other generations of tests) because it would be very embarrassing if AZ students took the same tests other states use. They would have to deny high school diplomas to about 60% of AZ high school students.
If a school can't provide for the gifted they also have a low ceiling for regular students.
Dawn Cole was the only Flinn scholar from Flagstaff this year. Congratulations to her. "
Tater wrote on Jun 27, 2009 12:28 PM:
" Expecting a school district that has budget issues (some self inflicted) year after year to provide a quality and quantity of education to meet the real and perceived special needs of every child is going to ensure they have neither. That doesn't mean you have no options. An excellent example is FALA. If I recall, FALA was a response to the districts failure to provide focused and dedicated education in the arts. Funding for the arts wasn't a priority to FUSD, but it was a priority to enough parents to ensure the tremendous success of FALA. Another thing, I never read about the FALA teachers complaining about their pay or working conditions, though I'm sure they face many of the same challenges as their peers in the public system.
How many kids are we talking about here anyway? If it's a huge number, did anyone consider turning over one of the high schools for gifted education?
bc---you wrote "Some actually have excellent reviews." Some? Only some? Is it asking to much for ALL of them to have 'excellent reviews' ? "
How many kids are we talking about here anyway? If it's a huge number, did anyone consider turning over one of the high schools for gifted education?
bc---you wrote "Some actually have excellent reviews." Some? Only some? Is it asking to much for ALL of them to have 'excellent reviews' ? "
Listen Up wrote on Jun 27, 2009 12:19 PM:
" Hey, the board is having a worksession on gifted programs on July 14. People can't speak at these, I don't think, but we should all show up in force to make a point. And send them your feelings on email on the district website so they know how everyone feels. "
bc wrote on Jun 27, 2009 12:28 AM:
" FUSD administration and governing board members should be ASHAMED of themselves! In the name of FUSD's language of " restructuring and will be providing even more time for gifted services", we as parents of TAG children are NOT FOOLED by the euphorically deceiving language that FUSD is using.
How can they say that they will not cut TAG services, when they have already axed TAG teachers that can actually teach gifted education? Now what? FUSD have to train more regular classroom teachers to provide gifted education?? FUSD just axed the most qualified gifted teachers in the district...HELLO!
They unilaterally made decisions and quietly axed Above and Beyond Program and all elementary TAG teachers! FUSD sent a vaguely-worded announcement about these cuts 2 weeks before the end of this past school year, so that many parents missed the chance to enroll their children into the desirable local charter schools. Apparently, the TAG teachers and its classroom structuring have been on the chopping block discussion for over 2 years. Their poor decision and lack of leadership leaves everyone hanging... NO plans... is POOR leadership!
TAG kids should not take the major brunt of the cut due to FUSD's lack of planning, and failure resulting in loss of 1.9 million dollars. Don't make the excuse of lack of funding, and budget cut to cut TAG. You don't think that it is an investment to provide high quality education? Do you only want to serve the average and below average kids? You will get just that! FUSD administrators are the ones that should take the job cut. Neither TAG teachers nor the TAG students should suffer from FUSD's incompetence. We want our tax dollars to provide high quality education, and this "restructuring" is a step in the WRONG direction! TAG teachers were targeted, because some of them were part-timers, and were on year-to-year contracts, despite the fact that some of they were in the district for more than 5 years. Some actually have excellent reviews. FUSD---you are making a BIG MISTAKE, because you are frustrating the TAG parents and students, whom you serve, and you are forcing the most talented children to GO ELSEWHERE. "
How can they say that they will not cut TAG services, when they have already axed TAG teachers that can actually teach gifted education? Now what? FUSD have to train more regular classroom teachers to provide gifted education?? FUSD just axed the most qualified gifted teachers in the district...HELLO!
They unilaterally made decisions and quietly axed Above and Beyond Program and all elementary TAG teachers! FUSD sent a vaguely-worded announcement about these cuts 2 weeks before the end of this past school year, so that many parents missed the chance to enroll their children into the desirable local charter schools. Apparently, the TAG teachers and its classroom structuring have been on the chopping block discussion for over 2 years. Their poor decision and lack of leadership leaves everyone hanging... NO plans... is POOR leadership!
TAG kids should not take the major brunt of the cut due to FUSD's lack of planning, and failure resulting in loss of 1.9 million dollars. Don't make the excuse of lack of funding, and budget cut to cut TAG. You don't think that it is an investment to provide high quality education? Do you only want to serve the average and below average kids? You will get just that! FUSD administrators are the ones that should take the job cut. Neither TAG teachers nor the TAG students should suffer from FUSD's incompetence. We want our tax dollars to provide high quality education, and this "restructuring" is a step in the WRONG direction! TAG teachers were targeted, because some of them were part-timers, and were on year-to-year contracts, despite the fact that some of they were in the district for more than 5 years. Some actually have excellent reviews. FUSD---you are making a BIG MISTAKE, because you are frustrating the TAG parents and students, whom you serve, and you are forcing the most talented children to GO ELSEWHERE. "
Tater wrote on Jun 26, 2009 7:45 PM:
" JK wrote on Jun 26, 2009 2:30 PM:
" Skipping a grade or two doesn't work very well. Children in the 97th percentile might actually be able to skip several grades academically. But that throws them out of physiological and psychological sync with others in their classroom.
Some can handle it and some can't. It would be a tough decision for parents to make, and issues other than being able to keep up with the curriculum would be a part of that decision. Even then, the school would have to agree to the skip.
"Do you think it is a good idea for a 10 year old girl to be in a class with 13 year old boys?"
What's the big deal. In my view, its no different than having a 13 year old girl in a class with 13 year old boys. I don't think its a bad idea for young boys to begin to respect females for their intelect at an early age. Surely you aren't concerned about sex because these kids are under supervision at school.
"Or what about a 10 year old boy having to compete with 13 year old boys in sports???"
If sports are a priority don't skip the grade. Or for a win-win, allow them to participate at their age level. In reality, even now 14 year olds compete with 17 and 18 year olds. I did.
"Gifted education has very different outcomes from all that."
If someone is convinced their child is the next Steve Job, Bill Gates, or Steven Hawking, why would you put them in public school to begin with? "
" Skipping a grade or two doesn't work very well. Children in the 97th percentile might actually be able to skip several grades academically. But that throws them out of physiological and psychological sync with others in their classroom.
Some can handle it and some can't. It would be a tough decision for parents to make, and issues other than being able to keep up with the curriculum would be a part of that decision. Even then, the school would have to agree to the skip.
"Do you think it is a good idea for a 10 year old girl to be in a class with 13 year old boys?"
What's the big deal. In my view, its no different than having a 13 year old girl in a class with 13 year old boys. I don't think its a bad idea for young boys to begin to respect females for their intelect at an early age. Surely you aren't concerned about sex because these kids are under supervision at school.
"Or what about a 10 year old boy having to compete with 13 year old boys in sports???"
If sports are a priority don't skip the grade. Or for a win-win, allow them to participate at their age level. In reality, even now 14 year olds compete with 17 and 18 year olds. I did.
"Gifted education has very different outcomes from all that."
If someone is convinced their child is the next Steve Job, Bill Gates, or Steven Hawking, why would you put them in public school to begin with? "
anon wrote on Jun 26, 2009 4:24 PM:
" We are shortchanging who will be working at various places in Flagstaff.
Don't we want well educated individuals working here in Flagstaff? I have a sister who is highly qualified to teach and she does. She knows how to get to students and keep them engaged in learning. She takes courses at this university and she finds some professors are lazy, or unprepared totally and so they cancel classes and or just bring up social discussion time (I mean reading discussions). She has to constantly question the instructor about points, subject matter, ...you name it. Some faculty at this university just are not there and after hearing the horror stories the past few years, why aren't the people in control listen in on these faculty at times, heck at all levels. Some teachers are gifted too with talent to help others learn and to want to learn and the students become great citizens! "
Don't we want well educated individuals working here in Flagstaff? I have a sister who is highly qualified to teach and she does. She knows how to get to students and keep them engaged in learning. She takes courses at this university and she finds some professors are lazy, or unprepared totally and so they cancel classes and or just bring up social discussion time (I mean reading discussions). She has to constantly question the instructor about points, subject matter, ...you name it. Some faculty at this university just are not there and after hearing the horror stories the past few years, why aren't the people in control listen in on these faculty at times, heck at all levels. Some teachers are gifted too with talent to help others learn and to want to learn and the students become great citizens! "
JK wrote on Jun 26, 2009 2:30 PM:
" Skipping a grade or two doesn't work very well. Children in the 97th percentile might actually be able to skip several grades academically. But that throws them out of physiological and psychological sync with others in their classroom. Do you think it is a good idea for a 10 year old girl to be in a class with 13 year old boys? Or what about a 10 year old boy having to compete with 13 year old boys in sports???
Read the life of Norbert Wiener (math, cybernetics, signal transmission) for a nightmare of what happens. He got his PhD at 18 and became a professional "difficult genius". They still tell stories at MIT.
If you want to create a social class of unpleasant people with a lot of power that is one way to do it. Or send them off to private school instead of public school where they have no contact with the general population That is another way.
Gifted education has very different outcomes from all that. "
Read the life of Norbert Wiener (math, cybernetics, signal transmission) for a nightmare of what happens. He got his PhD at 18 and became a professional "difficult genius". They still tell stories at MIT.
If you want to create a social class of unpleasant people with a lot of power that is one way to do it. Or send them off to private school instead of public school where they have no contact with the general population That is another way.
Gifted education has very different outcomes from all that. "
DH wrote on Jun 26, 2009 1:29 PM:
" In addition to all of the above comments regarding the TAG program, Hillary left out the ABOVE AND BEYOND program which started this entire hoopla. The Middle School Talented and Gifted Program was quietly abandoned with not a word to the participants of 2008-09 school year. These students that come to the program are required to commit to this program for two years. Seventh and eighth graders are taught together and teach each other in the four core curriculum subjects. They stay together as a team and while all are not talented and/or gifted the expectations for these kids are high and the children rise to the occasion.
The Administration, in its infinite wisdom, ended this program without alerting parents. The discovery was made by parental inquiry to a school secretary at the end of the year. The school administration explained this away with a "my bad." Conveniently our two year "promise" was forgotten and the change was kept quiet long enough for there to be no other alternatives for the parents, ie., charter schools.
This program costs the school NOTHING EXTRA! Any additional funds needed for trips, equipment, etc. is raised through tax vouchers of the parents of these kids. The program is ending, and yet the School Board is taking a trip to Colorado to observe a RISC school founded on the Adams 50 plan to consider for our future school system. Interestingly, these three systems are very similar in their foundations, yet the Administration is ending Above and Beyond. To what end?
I've found that the Administration at all levels is blaming the School Board and each other for this major lack of judgement. The School Board maintains it only reacts to advisement by the Administration and everyone is claiming the other has the sole authority in this matter.
In the mean time, Flagstaff public education suffers. The better students leave for home schooling and charter schools, taking with them valuable government money and AIMS scores. Thus, the dumbing down of our Flagstaff education continues. "
The Administration, in its infinite wisdom, ended this program without alerting parents. The discovery was made by parental inquiry to a school secretary at the end of the year. The school administration explained this away with a "my bad." Conveniently our two year "promise" was forgotten and the change was kept quiet long enough for there to be no other alternatives for the parents, ie., charter schools.
This program costs the school NOTHING EXTRA! Any additional funds needed for trips, equipment, etc. is raised through tax vouchers of the parents of these kids. The program is ending, and yet the School Board is taking a trip to Colorado to observe a RISC school founded on the Adams 50 plan to consider for our future school system. Interestingly, these three systems are very similar in their foundations, yet the Administration is ending Above and Beyond. To what end?
I've found that the Administration at all levels is blaming the School Board and each other for this major lack of judgement. The School Board maintains it only reacts to advisement by the Administration and everyone is claiming the other has the sole authority in this matter.
In the mean time, Flagstaff public education suffers. The better students leave for home schooling and charter schools, taking with them valuable government money and AIMS scores. Thus, the dumbing down of our Flagstaff education continues. "
Poor choice wrote on Jun 26, 2009 10:36 AM:
" The school board better think this one over again. From what I heard, nobody who works with gifted kids was involved in this decision. And most of the TAG teachers think this is not in the best interest of the kids. This was done in a sneaky way, but why? The district better think twice or lose even more kids to charters. Isn't that what they were trying to stop? Dumb move, FUSD. Say goodbye to even more students. You are about to lose your brightest kids. "
J... wrote on Jun 26, 2009 5:01 AM:
" For parents of gifted children in the Flagstaff area... You don't have to reinvent the wheel. There is a group to help you work with your school district to make sure your children get an appropriate education.
AAGT is the leading organization dedicated to providing the information and guidance necessary for parents, teachers, administrators, counselors, and legislators to develop and support gifted education in our state.
Our advocacy takes many forms including an annual conference for parents and educators, a quarterly newsletter, scholarships for gifted students, and the most comprehensive resource guide for gifted children in Arizona. These benefits, and more, are available to members of AAGT.
The affilliate chapters of AAGT for Northern Arizona are in Cottonwood (SOAR) and Window Rock (WRSGT). How come there isn't anything in Flagstaff?? Parents, don't you know how to organize yourselves?
The Year of the Gifted Child in 1986-7 celebrated the passage of the legislation requiring gifted education in Arizona thanks, in part, to the support of then-governor Bruce Babbitt. Some of us also worked to improve math and science education and to work with the Flinn Foundation and Eddie Basha to found the Honors College at ASU and to raise funding for many other educational opportunities through out Arizona.
And for those who are afraid gifted education somehow deprives "regular" children look at a case in point of a gifted program in Washington State that had a volunteer mom who managed to get computer terminal-sharing time from a local bank for the kids. One was her son Bill -- he later dropped out of Harvard and went off with a scatter-brained idea about operating systems for computers one could have in one's home, high and healing windows like the Abba song, and visions of changing the world.... All I can say is that the gifted program there yielded what was probably the largest return on investment of any educational program in the history of the world... and Seattle (and the rest of the US) benefited and continues to benefit. Their public TV stations are well-funded and provide some of the best programming in the country - also available on the web free of charge. A number of those children in that gifted program work for Microsoft or had their educations paid for by Microsoft even if interested in totally unrelated fields of work. The local artisans are supported by Microsoft employees and other community service is part of an employee's evaluation at Microsoft. If you go through the bookstore at Microsoft you will find shelves and shelves of items for the education of children - offered at a discount for the children of employees but also a resource for the children of Seattle and any who visit... The campus of Microsoft is like one huge gifted education center for employees and their families. Weekends find them picnicking and playing unusually interesting games on the lawns. And MS replicates that model of employment in their offices around the world. Seattle, once an economically depressed area is now one of the few areas of real affluence in the US with a thriving trade in software...and also with a great history of philanthropy and helping to spread affluence around the world. Bill, like him or not, did change the world and he is one of the biggest supporters of public education. He gives away more money and resources than most of us even dream of earning and is the poster child for what a gifted education program can do for a locality and the rest of the world. [By the way, if you ever go to the Seattle airport, be sure to look down and see what another gifted child from the area has created in the concrete to amuse weary travellers and lift their spirits. ] "
AAGT is the leading organization dedicated to providing the information and guidance necessary for parents, teachers, administrators, counselors, and legislators to develop and support gifted education in our state.
Our advocacy takes many forms including an annual conference for parents and educators, a quarterly newsletter, scholarships for gifted students, and the most comprehensive resource guide for gifted children in Arizona. These benefits, and more, are available to members of AAGT.
The affilliate chapters of AAGT for Northern Arizona are in Cottonwood (SOAR) and Window Rock (WRSGT). How come there isn't anything in Flagstaff?? Parents, don't you know how to organize yourselves?
The Year of the Gifted Child in 1986-7 celebrated the passage of the legislation requiring gifted education in Arizona thanks, in part, to the support of then-governor Bruce Babbitt. Some of us also worked to improve math and science education and to work with the Flinn Foundation and Eddie Basha to found the Honors College at ASU and to raise funding for many other educational opportunities through out Arizona.
And for those who are afraid gifted education somehow deprives "regular" children look at a case in point of a gifted program in Washington State that had a volunteer mom who managed to get computer terminal-sharing time from a local bank for the kids. One was her son Bill -- he later dropped out of Harvard and went off with a scatter-brained idea about operating systems for computers one could have in one's home, high and healing windows like the Abba song, and visions of changing the world.... All I can say is that the gifted program there yielded what was probably the largest return on investment of any educational program in the history of the world... and Seattle (and the rest of the US) benefited and continues to benefit. Their public TV stations are well-funded and provide some of the best programming in the country - also available on the web free of charge. A number of those children in that gifted program work for Microsoft or had their educations paid for by Microsoft even if interested in totally unrelated fields of work. The local artisans are supported by Microsoft employees and other community service is part of an employee's evaluation at Microsoft. If you go through the bookstore at Microsoft you will find shelves and shelves of items for the education of children - offered at a discount for the children of employees but also a resource for the children of Seattle and any who visit... The campus of Microsoft is like one huge gifted education center for employees and their families. Weekends find them picnicking and playing unusually interesting games on the lawns. And MS replicates that model of employment in their offices around the world. Seattle, once an economically depressed area is now one of the few areas of real affluence in the US with a thriving trade in software...and also with a great history of philanthropy and helping to spread affluence around the world. Bill, like him or not, did change the world and he is one of the biggest supporters of public education. He gives away more money and resources than most of us even dream of earning and is the poster child for what a gifted education program can do for a locality and the rest of the world. [By the way, if you ever go to the Seattle airport, be sure to look down and see what another gifted child from the area has created in the concrete to amuse weary travellers and lift their spirits. ] "
Flagstaff Family wrote on Jun 25, 2009 11:45 PM:
" How does Flagstaff's FUSD board and the Town Council think that our City will be able to continue recruiting talented candidates for positions at Gore, NAU, FMC, etc, from out of state or out of region, when the City's school district so consistently shows distain for the educational process for Flagstaff's children? "
JK wrote on Jun 25, 2009 9:17 PM:
" "Regular" school teachers do a lousy job with children at either far end of the spectrum of academic ability and not because of any lack of skill in the sort of teaching they were trained for - the normal range of academic ability. The children at the low end of the spectrum take up a lot of the teacher's time and just plain physical and mental effort, not to mention all the special materials required.. It may make parents feel better to have such a child in a regular classroom but it is very hard on the "regular" teacher with 30 (or 35 or more) other children in the normal range of the bell curve to teach. Either the special needs child, the majority of the children, or the teacher suffers... maybe all three.
Similarly for the gifted child (97 percentile or higher in math, science, language). Most people who think they can be mashed into a "normal" curriculum without a disaster for either the "regular" teacher or the gifted child or the rest of the class have just never met a young Feynman or Gauss, Anderson Cooper, Julia Roberts, Jeff Goldblum, Geena Davis, Bill Murray, Rachel Carson, Barbara McClintock, Ralph Nader, Barack Obama, Sandra Day Oconnor, Stephen King, Steven Spielberg, George Lucas, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Woz, Allan Kay, Cher, Linus Pauling, Bruce Babbitt, Heisenberg, Riemann, Orson Scott Card, Joseph Campbell, Tesla, Marilyn Monroe, Jodie Foster, Einstein... read their biographies and see what they did to their "regular" teachers... or, more tragically, what was done to them in a "regular" setting... and how important finding a real teacher of the gifted is to such a child...even if only for a few hours of the week. Has anyone seen "October Sky" or "Little Man Tate" or read "Ender's Game" or "Razor's Edge"??? "
Similarly for the gifted child (97 percentile or higher in math, science, language). Most people who think they can be mashed into a "normal" curriculum without a disaster for either the "regular" teacher or the gifted child or the rest of the class have just never met a young Feynman or Gauss, Anderson Cooper, Julia Roberts, Jeff Goldblum, Geena Davis, Bill Murray, Rachel Carson, Barbara McClintock, Ralph Nader, Barack Obama, Sandra Day Oconnor, Stephen King, Steven Spielberg, George Lucas, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Woz, Allan Kay, Cher, Linus Pauling, Bruce Babbitt, Heisenberg, Riemann, Orson Scott Card, Joseph Campbell, Tesla, Marilyn Monroe, Jodie Foster, Einstein... read their biographies and see what they did to their "regular" teachers... or, more tragically, what was done to them in a "regular" setting... and how important finding a real teacher of the gifted is to such a child...even if only for a few hours of the week. Has anyone seen "October Sky" or "Little Man Tate" or read "Ender's Game" or "Razor's Edge"??? "
Tater wrote on Jun 25, 2009 8:06 PM:
" Bruce-----I don't see why its a big deal. I would think any certified teacher is capable of teaching these kids at the level they are ready to learn. If the kids are so gifted and talented, then skip them a grade. That way they can have more time for just being a kid. For those that can't make the grade, let them have a 'mulligan' and repeat the grade.
Gone --- Good luck with that. I think there are waiting lists. "
Gone --- Good luck with that. I think there are waiting lists. "
J... wrote on Jun 25, 2009 7:35 PM:
" Gifted (97 percentile or higher in math, science, language) education is special needs education under Arizona law... When the law was passed I was there - I still have the pen from the signing ceremony with then governor Babbitt.
Arizona Law Mandates that: "All school districts shall provide to gifted pupils special education commensurate with their academic abilities and potentials."
http://www.azleg.gov/jlbc/psadegifted.pdf
According to the recent SCOTUS decision, if it is not provided then the district must pay for privately provided education for those children.
So where is the gifted lawyer that wants to take on the lawsuit that FUSD seems to require.... "
Arizona Law Mandates that: "All school districts shall provide to gifted pupils special education commensurate with their academic abilities and potentials."
http://www.azleg.gov/jlbc/psadegifted.pdf
According to the recent SCOTUS decision, if it is not provided then the district must pay for privately provided education for those children.
So where is the gifted lawyer that wants to take on the lawsuit that FUSD seems to require.... "
Pines wrote on Jun 25, 2009 7:18 PM:
" Its interesting how the board doesn't give it a second thought doing away with programs for gifted. Yet they wouldn't dare eliminate the English as a second language classes for all the kids of illegals. Makes you wonder about the board members.
To the commenter about developmentally disabled students. In case you aren't aware there are some students, namely some with Aspergers, who can qualify for both the gifted class and the developmentally disabled classes. So services for developmentally disabled is not always "babysitting". Sometimes it involves OT's that teach social skills (though probably not here in Flag were the educational system is so backwards). "
To the commenter about developmentally disabled students. In case you aren't aware there are some students, namely some with Aspergers, who can qualify for both the gifted class and the developmentally disabled classes. So services for developmentally disabled is not always "babysitting". Sometimes it involves OT's that teach social skills (though probably not here in Flag were the educational system is so backwards). "
Gone wrote on Jun 25, 2009 5:09 PM:
" As a parent of two TAG children, I am appalled that this is the first that I have heard about these changes! My husband and I had originally decided to give FUSD another year to see how they work it out - but now, NO THANKS! I am going tomorrow to enroll both my children (and my Tax Credit donations) in a charter school.
This is absolutely pathetic! When will the voters decide to get rid of this school board? "
This is absolutely pathetic! When will the voters decide to get rid of this school board? "
Tom wrote on Jun 25, 2009 2:45 PM:
" This is the logic of our public schools. There are no mandates or even any guaranteed funding for the gifted students but a slew of requirements, mandates and money for "special needs" kids.
When are we going to get it? We neglect future tax payers and those potential students who will go on to make everyone's life better and richer but we allow laws and mandates that force school system to accomodate "special needs" kids, at the expense of the majority of the kids, to provide an "enriching" atmosphere (baby-sitting in many instances for parents) for "special needs" kids.
Parents of gifted and "average" kids need to start making some noise and follow the lead of parents with "special needs" kids - start threatening and filing lawsuits.
I can already hear the degrading comments, false statements and emotional diatribes that will be hurled for these comments. "
When are we going to get it? We neglect future tax payers and those potential students who will go on to make everyone's life better and richer but we allow laws and mandates that force school system to accomodate "special needs" kids, at the expense of the majority of the kids, to provide an "enriching" atmosphere (baby-sitting in many instances for parents) for "special needs" kids.
Parents of gifted and "average" kids need to start making some noise and follow the lead of parents with "special needs" kids - start threatening and filing lawsuits.
I can already hear the degrading comments, false statements and emotional diatribes that will be hurled for these comments. "
Bruce wrote on Jun 25, 2009 2:37 PM:
" Tater, think about what you asked. If a regular teacher can teach special ed kids why cant they teach gifted kids. Setting aside real handicaps and just looking at raw intelligence, it's fairly simple. A teacher with normal intelligence is going to be smarter than a regular, normal kid just due to years of learning. That same teacher is surely OK for a kid with lower than normal intelligence, but may NOT be as smart as a kid with intelligence substantially above average, ie a truely gifted kid. What's that TV show, are you smarter than a 5th grader? By the way, congratulations on having a smart kid! "
Tater wrote on Jun 25, 2009 2:03 PM:
" Upset Tag Parent wrote on Jun 25, 2009 12:35 PM:
" Additional homework does not equal gifted education although that is what the administration wants us to beleive. "
My daughter made the same observation 10 years ago when she was in high school. That was essentially all she got out of it. More homework than her peers. "
" Additional homework does not equal gifted education although that is what the administration wants us to beleive. "
My daughter made the same observation 10 years ago when she was in high school. That was essentially all she got out of it. More homework than her peers. "
Upset Tag Parent wrote on Jun 25, 2009 12:35 PM:
" Additional homework does not equal gifted education although that is what the administration wants us to beleive. "
Tater wrote on Jun 25, 2009 11:48 AM:
" Isn't a regular certified teacher smart enough to teach these "gifted" children. What's up with that? If teacher's in FUSD aren't qualified, then I've got 2 words. Charter School.
We don't have a problem 'mainstreaming' kids with special needs, so what's the problem giving the smart kids that same treatment? Are we afraid that these smart kids won't reach their potential if they are stuck with classmates who aren't 'talented' or 'gifted'? My child was in the TAG program years ago. It was more of a bragging point for my wife (and other parents as well) than anything else. Put these TAG kids on one of those short school buses and watch how fast these parents and kids bail from the program. "
We don't have a problem 'mainstreaming' kids with special needs, so what's the problem giving the smart kids that same treatment? Are we afraid that these smart kids won't reach their potential if they are stuck with classmates who aren't 'talented' or 'gifted'? My child was in the TAG program years ago. It was more of a bragging point for my wife (and other parents as well) than anything else. Put these TAG kids on one of those short school buses and watch how fast these parents and kids bail from the program. "
kr wrote on Jun 25, 2009 8:49 AM:
" What I find realy scary is that my son knew about these chagnes and discussed them with me long before the letter or any other notification to me as a parent. I would have appreciated more timely and direct notification. "
JK wrote on Jun 25, 2009 8:39 AM:
" Integrated classes for gifted students are like no classes for academically gifted students. TAG isn't great but is better than nothing. "Integration" is simply a way to disguise massive increase in class size and lowering the standards and expectations...
The Supreme Court recently said that public schools must fund private education for special needs students if they fail to provide an appropriate education for them. So I hope there is a lawyer in the parent group who can initiate the lawsuit against FUSD. "
The Supreme Court recently said that public schools must fund private education for special needs students if they fail to provide an appropriate education for them. So I hope there is a lawyer in the parent group who can initiate the lawsuit against FUSD. "
Bruce wrote on Jun 25, 2009 8:39 AM:
" What a joke. "Regular" classroom teachers taking over the instruction of the gifted? I still have a clear rememberance of a Board meeting a few years ago. There was a proposed 10% salary reduction on the table. One teacher got up and said that since both he and his wife were teachers that meant they would suffer a 20% reduction. Yep, I guess that is the kind of teacher we want instructing the gifted.
This is EXACTLY the problem with public education. They seem Hell-bent on dumbing down the population. They fight merit pay tooth and nail so as not to have to recognize exceptional work among the many members of the FEA. Thank God for charter schools and the ability of parents to choose where to send their kids.
Compare this article and its direction with the recent article in the Sun about FALA (Flagstaff Arts and Leadership Academy). FALA is expanding. FUSD has been shrinking for years. "
This is EXACTLY the problem with public education. They seem Hell-bent on dumbing down the population. They fight merit pay tooth and nail so as not to have to recognize exceptional work among the many members of the FEA. Thank God for charter schools and the ability of parents to choose where to send their kids.
Compare this article and its direction with the recent article in the Sun about FALA (Flagstaff Arts and Leadership Academy). FALA is expanding. FUSD has been shrinking for years. "
Burns wrote on Jun 25, 2009 7:13 AM:
" I am a parent of a TAG student and I am outraged that this has all occurred without the parents knowing. We were mailed "the letter" yet it did not say that Mr. Z will not be the TAG teacher. I am so sad that although it's state mandated, the district doesn't seem to care!!! I also teach at Knoles, I have seen the impact that Mr. Z has had on the student's lives, it's very sad that he will not be there next year. "
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The Arizona Daily Sun, Copyright 2009 © 1751 S. Thompson, Flagstaff, AZ
The Arizona Daily Sun, Copyright 2009 © 1751 S. Thompson, Flagstaff, AZ
JK wrote on Jul 9, 2009 4:17 PM:
Not all gifted students end up at the big name schools. Joseph Campbell is an example of one that dropped out to drop up - he never got a doctorate. And a number of students at big name schools are not at all gifted - like W they simply have a rich, well-connected Daddy.
And then there was "Doc" in the Monterrey Cannery row group before it became fashionable. Trend setters for a generation.
Sometimes they are risk takers like Shackleton.
And sometimes they simply use library space to rent a typewriter to prepare manuscripts and read books - like Ray Bradbury - who could not afford to go to college but made good use of the library at the UofA.
The normal distribution (Bell curve) is the limiting distribution of a random quantity which is the sum of smaller, independent random phenomena. IQ scores are normally distributed because a person's intelligence is the sum of many small random variations in genetic and environmental factors.
The normal or Gaussian distribution can be used to describe, at least approximately, any variable that tends to cluster around the mean. For example, the heights of adult males in the United States are roughly normally distributed, with a mean of about 70 inches. Most men have a height close to the mean, though a small number of outliers have a height significantly above or below the mean. A histogram of male heights will appear similar to a bell curve, with the correspondence becoming closer if more data is used. If a histogram is made up of more than one bell curve that is evidence for a multiplicity of sub-populations (more than one variable). So Lilliputians would have their own normal distribution in terms of height.. And the height distribution of professional basketball players would also differ.
The annotated list of approved tests for the identification of giftedness in Arizona:
http://www.ade.state.az.us/asd/gifted/downloads/Test_List.pdf "